Can Dents in French Horn Tubing Be Removed

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Cadenza Veteran Member Joined: 12 Jan 2009 Posts: 243	Posted: Sat January 26, 2013 half-dozen:57 pm   Post discipline: Trumpet ER: What and where are un-fixable dents? I'grand not a tech, and I'm always amazed at the results that our local tech gets with horns that look like basket cases to me. He's similar a trumpet ER! That said, are there dents that simply aren't acquiescent to being fixed and getting a Practiced result? Here I'm wondering about: one. What types of dents tin can't be easily taken out past a proficient tech? ii. What locations are often not cost-effective to accept out dents (bell tail? elsewhere?)? iii. Any other difficult characteristics that I've failed to think of? This will help non-techs (like me) have a amend thought of what repairs are probably going to exist cost-effective when y'all're looking at older horns for your students, and what aren't. Cheers!
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KMT Veteran Member Joined: 17 Sep 2007 Posts: 477	Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:26 pm   Mail field of study: I;d imagine getting a dent out of the valve section is not an easy task.
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mike ansberry Heavyweight Member Joined: 03 Jun 2003 Posts: 1497 Location: Clarksville, Tn	Posted: Saturday Jan 26, 2013 vii:38 pm   Mail service discipline: KMT wrote: I;d imagine getting a dent out of the valve section is not an easy job. Not if you have the right mandrel. _________________ Music is a fire in your belly, fighting to become out. Y'all'd amend put a horn in the way before someone gets hurt.
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jkarnes0661 Veteran Member Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 206 Location: Grand Rapids, MI	Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:53 am   Postal service subject: I've e'er considered a dent in the leadpipe to exist a "replacement necessary" repair. Not sure if that would remain truthful for a student instrument though. _________________ Jonathan Karnes Grand Rapids, MI jonathankarnes.com
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RandyTX Heavyweight Member Joined: 25 Mar 2010 Posts: 5149 Location: Central Texas	Posted: Sun January 27, 2013 9:36 am   Postal service subject: Re: Trumpet ER: What and where are un-fixable dents? Cadenza wrote: I'chiliad non a tech, and I'm always amazed at the results that our local tech gets with horns that look like basket cases to me. He's like a trumpet ER! That said, are there dents that simply aren't amenable to being fixed and getting a GOOD result? It sounds like y'all already know the right guy to enquire your questions. ^^ _________________ "Music is like candy, you throw the (w)rappers away."
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Scott42486 Heavyweight Member Joined: xviii Jun 2006 Posts: 527 Location: San Antonio, Texas	Posted: Sunday Jan 27, 2013 ix:53 am   Post subject: I've been told that the leadpipe can be problematic. Merely the thing I've been told is the worst office to have problems with is the second valve slide. _________________ Bach/Kanstul Frankenhorn Warburton Mouthpieces
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royjohn Heavyweight Member Joined: 12 Jan 2005 Posts: 2264 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee	Posted: Sun January 27, 2013 eleven:43 am   Post subject: There may be dents and so astringent that they tin't be entirely removed. When the metal is stretched greatly, information technology may not go dorsum right. That said, few dents acquired by normal wearable and tear would fit this category, I think. You're talking more about trumpets accidentally trampled or run over and completely mangled. Dent balls in graduated incremental sizes of 0.001" pushed through the bell bow with a flexible shaft like a plumbing snake take care of dents that appear "unreachable." The phrase "all reachable dents" applies more than to baritones and tubas with their serpentine wraps, than to trumpets, where all dents should exist reachable with standard tools. Even those tuba dents can be reached, but crave disassembly that is costly. With the new magnetic dent removal systems, even some of these can be fixed without disassembly. I don't see why dents in a directly piece of pipe like a leadpipe wouldn't be fixable. Because of the taper, one would have to exist very careful not to enlarge that, merely a actually good tech, working advisedly, should exist able to put things to right in a leadpipe, I'd think. Valve casings are routinely honed or glassy to put them round once more and it isn't hard--with the right tools. Information technology would be interesting to hear from some of the pros. _________________ royjohn Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970'due south Getzen four valve Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . .
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Capt.Kirk Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 February 2009 Posts: 5792	Posted: Monday Jan 28, 2013 12:sixteen am   Postal service subject: If information technology is hard to get with out taking the horn apart. If the metal is paper thin in the area. Labor is what kills the removal of some dents. Feerre(sp) sells a tool no tools for getting nigh of the dents out. The bell bow can be tricky because any place yous curve tubing y'all sparse the wall out. Oftentimes they can get most of a dent out with out taking the horn apart. Between thin metal and the need to take a horn apart they normally will do what they can. You would want to call a customer and corroborate the added piece of work involved with taking the horn apart. They fifty-fifty sell a tapered metal rod with rollers a lot like you come across used on trombone slides that volition reform a leadpipe. Who knows how that tool might result intonation given the fact Old Man Schilke said that leadpipe correction are in the .001 range for tuning a leadpipe. _________________ The just like shooting fish in a barrel day was yesterday!
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royjohn Heavyweight Member Joined: 12 Jan 2005 Posts: 2264 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee	Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:08 am   Postal service discipline: I take watched while Rich Ita took a dent out of my bong bow without taking the bell off the horn. As I said, there's a tool which allows you to push a paring ball down the bell bow on a flexible shaft. Once the paring is pushed out, one uses a dent hammer and/or burnisher to smooth the area where the dent was. Unless it was admittedly crushed, it ought to wait like new later on that. Every bit far equally 0.001" tolerances in leadpipes, I don't call up the tubing is manufactured that tightly, esp. later it is tapered. However, be that as it may, when a dent is taken out, there shouldn't be a wave in the tubing. If the reflections are direct once more, you should be close to an 0.001" tolerance. These reflections will tell you when the pipage is directly again, they are very sensitive to deformation. If it doesn't look direct, it own't. _________________ royjohn Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb past Nib Jones Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen iv valve Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . .
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Bill Blackwell Heavyweight Fellow member Joined: 28 November 2008 Posts: 969 Location: Southern CA	Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:29 am   Post subject field: I discovered a small ping right next to the water key on my flugelhorn after a gig. Based on where the dent was located, a repair meant removing the bong to the bell co-operative seam. Since the horn was lacquered I decided to pass on the repair and simply live with it. _________________ Bill Blackwell Founder - Sons of Thunder Big Band Machine Wild Thing Bb - Copper Wild Thing Flugelhorn - Copper Wild Thing Short-Model Cornet - Copper When you come up to a fork in the route, take it. - Yogi Berra
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Mark Curry Heavyweight Member Joined: 15 February 2007 Posts: 1075	Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 nine:53 am   Postal service subject: Neb Blackwell wrote: I discovered a small ping right next to the water primal on my flugelhorn after a gig. Based on where the dent was located, a repair meant removing the bell to the bell branch seam. Since the horn was lacquered I decided to laissez passer on the repair and simply live with it. Bill- I hear ya! Plus, dents in flugels give them character! A friend of mine withal has Joe Davis' Couesnon he used during his time here in Reno... TONS of grapheme! _________________ A mouthpiece never missed a note past itself!
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Maarten van Weverwijk Heavyweight Member Joined: 04 January 2006 Posts: 3376	Posted: Mon January 28, 2013 10:32 am   Post subject: Bill Blackwell wrote: ...a pocket-sized ping right next to the water central on my flugel...Based on where the paring was located, a repair meant removing the bell to the bong branch seam... Why? For dents in the long bell tube of fl�gelhorns I apply a dentball driver that's specifically designed for bell tubes of French horns. You can vary its length by adding/removing delrin driver sections. Only with very deep or folded dents unsoldering would exist necesarry. To get to the best results I bought a Ferree'south paring ball set up besides as their complete half size box (every dent ball of which falls in between two balls of the standard box). Best shop investment I've made so far... Especially dents in bell crooks tin can be removed a zillion times ameliorate with this kit. Truth be told, not everything tin can be solved without having to de- and re-solder parts, only also, different repair men may have different styles too. Personally, for example, I adopt to de-solder dented leadpipes, put them on a m.piece mandrel and and so roll the dent out. It's not platonic (fourth dimension consuming) but in most cases the result is 100% satisfactory; it's frequently smoother than pulling dent balls in the pipe through its big end and also much amend than having to buy a completely new pipe. MvW. Concluding edited by Maarten van Weverwijk on Monday Jan 28, 2013 2:31 pm; edited one time in full
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KansasTrumpet Heavyweight Member Joined: 21 November 2005 Posts: 1357 Location: Las Vegas	Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:57 am   Post field of study: Id like to thank the other professionals who posted in this thread and given existent information. There is a lot of speculation and misinformation out at that place almost our field. You lot don't accept to take any sort of degree or special grooming to call yourself a repairmen. If you spit skilful enough game and get enough people to trust yous, than pretty much anything you say people volition believe. And then, when that guy says, "Well I would take to take all this stuff autonomously to get to it" or "They don't make a tool to get into that spot" the customer tends to believe it because they accept put their trust in that individual. Goose egg against anyone'due south technician, simply personally, I dont always run into taking the horn apart every bit the first approach. Its my goal to continue the horn every bit original as possible. This means Not having to do refinish piece of work on a repair unless its necessary. Not ever possible, simply it doesnt injure to try That being said. The dent next to the waterkey. I tin can think of reasons why the technician said he would take to take it apart. However, without even seeing the dent, I will tell y'all that I would not accept to... in fact any repairmen worth calling himself a repairmen wouldn't take to. In that location is a technique used for getting dents out in these type of areas that a lot of people dont use anymore. It takes more time, and at times is dull piece of work, but the results speak for themselves. Being lacquer, there would likely exist a scar, simply no dent. Dorsum to the OP: Quote: i. What types of dents tin can't be hands taken out by a skilful tech? I will assume your just talking about trumpets. If yous are a GOOD tech, the only stuff that cant exist easily removed are sharp astringent creases that may crack. Quote: two. What locations are frequently not price-constructive to take out dents (bell tail? elsewhere?)? Non toll effective? This more depends on the quality of instrument than anything else. If we are talking about a pre-state of war MEHA or something like that.. Its ALL cost constructive. If we are talking almost something more like a borg or tristar, non of it is toll effective. In the same respect. If its a cheaper american fabricated student horn that has been stepped on and I demand 3 hours to straighten information technology out ($lx/60 minutes), you lot might exist better off replacing it rather than repairing it.. unless there is sentimental value. I experience like some of my answers hither are a trivial vague, merely so many things are case to example. Normal vesture and tear is never a problem that a pro cant handle. When we start getting into extremes the results of the repair are going to depend and then much on how the horn landed, got run over, stepped on, crushed, etc. Its simply difficult to generalize. I've turned lamps dorsum into trumpets, I restored a horn that was lifted up into a damn tornado, horns that were stepped on (all too common), and of grade the typical bleacher drops... shoot, when I was start starting out and doing general repair still the shop I worked for took in a piccolo that had been run over by a golf cart. That piccolo worked just fine a few days later! If I stock-still it, information technology was fixable and cost constructive to the player. Hope this helps.[/quote] _________________ Del Quadro Custom www.DQsCustomShop.com Discover me on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Del-Quadro-Custom-Trumpets/188607601169514
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yourbrass Heavyweight Fellow member Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3245 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA	Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:12 pm   Post subject: Maarten van Weverwijk wrote: Pecker Blackwell wrote: ...a modest ping right next to the water primal on my flugel...Based on where the dent was located, a repair meant removing the bell to the bell co-operative seam... Why? For dents in the long bell tube of fl�gelhorns I use a dentball driver that'south specifically designed for bell tubes of French horns. You can vary its length past adding/removing delrin commuter sections. Merely with very deep or folded dents unsoldering would be necesarry. To become to the best results I bought a Ferree'due south dent ball prepare also as their complete half size box (every dent ball of which falls in between two balls of the standard box). Best shop investment I've made so far... Especially dents in bong crooks can be removed a zillion times better with this kit. Truth be told, not everything can exist solved without having to de- and re-solder parts, but as well, dissimilar repair men may accept unlike styles too. Personally, for instance, I prefer to de-solder dented leadpipes, put them on a m.slice mandrel and and then roll the dent out. Information technology'due south not ideal, but in almost cases the result is more okay (better than having to purchase a new piping). MvW. I notice flugelhorn crooks to exist a piddling more sensitive than well-nigh trumpets/cornets. The metal is often soft, and in the larger areas, you don't have every bit fine a gradation of dent balls to work with as in smaller areas. Leadpipe dents, no problem fixing them on the horn, unless the thing is desperately aptitude, then I'd go with Maarten's opinion that it should exist removed, disassembled, straightened, etc. _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola Kanstul Besson "Jack Rex" ACB MV3CS https://yourbrass.com/
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Nib Blackwell Heavyweight Member Joined: 28 Nov 2008 Posts: 969 Location: Southern CA	Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:20 pm   Mail subject area: Maarten van Weverwijk wrote: Bill Blackwell wrote: ...a small ping right side by side to the water key on my flugel...Based on where the dent was located, a repair meant removing the bong to the bell branch seam... Why? For dents in the long bell tube of fl�gelhorns I utilize a dentball driver that's specifically designed for bong tubes of French horns. You can vary its length past adding/removing delrin driver sections. Simply with very deep or folded dents unsoldering would be necesarry. ... Because the bell was copper, I was informed trying to remove the paring without removing the bong at the branch seam would nearly likely crusade more damage. And since removing the bell meant the unabridged horn would need to be re-lacquered, I passed on the proposition. _________________ Bill Blackwell Founder - Sons of Thunder Large Band Machine Wild Thing Bb - Copper Wild Thing Flugelhorn - Copper Wild Thing Short-Model Cornet - Copper When yous come to a fork in the route, take it. - Yogi Berra
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Maarten van Weverwijk Heavyweight Member Joined: 04 Jan 2006 Posts: 3376	Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:25 pm   Post bailiwick: KansasTrumpet wrote: ...There is a technique used for getting dents out in these type of areas that a lot of people dont utilise anymore. It takes more time, and at times is tedious work, but the results speak for themselves... Shake it, baby!
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KansasTrumpet Heavyweight Member Joined: 21 Nov 2005 Posts: 1357 Location: Las Vegas	Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:30 pm   Post subject: Maarten van Weverwijk wrote: KansasTrumpet wrote: ...There is a technique used for getting dents out in these type of areas that a lot of people dont employ anymore. It takes more time, and at times is irksome work, but the results speak for themselves... Milk shake it, infant! Spoken like a human who TRULY knows! _________________ Del Quadro Custom www.DQsCustomShop.com Find me on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Del-Quadro-Custom-Trumpets/188607601169514
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Bill Blackwell Heavyweight Member Joined: 28 November 2008 Posts: 969 Location: Southern CA	Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:32 pm   Mail subject: KansasTrumpet wrote: ... I tin call up of reasons why the technician said he would have to have it apart. ...However, without fifty-fifty seeing the dent, I will tell you lot that I would non accept to... in fact any repairmen worth calling himself a repairmen wouldn't accept to. ... When your 'repair technician' is the guy who owns the manufactory which made the horn in the offset place, you lot might tend to just trust what he says. And BTW, I did take it to another technician at a nearby music store who essentially told me the same affair. That is, attempting to gear up the dent where it was located without taking the bell off would likely cause more damage to the horn in the process (mainly due to information technology existence copper). _________________ Bill Blackwell Founder - Sons of Thunder Large Ring Auto Wild Thing Bb - Copper Wild Affair Flugelhorn - Copper Wild Thing Short-Model Cornet - Copper When y'all come to a fork in the road, have it. - Yogi Berra
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Capt.Kirk Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Feb 2009 Posts: 5792	Posted: Monday Jan 28, 2013 i:16 pm   Post subject: First not all Technicians are equal. Second well-nigh do not ain every tool that could be owned for the repair of Contumely instruments. Most dents in the bell bow are very bad they are not usually little pings like y'all become in the bell flair area and the metallic in the bong bow on nigh not electro-formed bells is thin. Even with annealing I have seen a rather large amount of dents that could not be totally removed. If the dent is big enough the edges course almost a crease. I can not count how many 2nd valve slides I have seen that still had waviness in them after being repaired.....In every instance the repairs where made by either Guild Carte du jour caring Technicians or Badger State Repair which trains Technicians. I have seen horns that where worked on by famous brass repair Tech.'s that still had signs of dent repair. It is always a philharmonic of skill and luck with regard to the metal behaving. I have seen some real Lazarus similar resurrections on horns that where amazingly done and cosmetically 95% fifty-fifty subsequently being ran over past a car. I have too seen some that cosmetically just did non make it in spite of the damage non looking that bad and the Tech being "World Famous". My local tech did a fantastic task on a bell that was damaged. No matter what he did though he could non get rid of the prove of the bell having been repaired. On the other hand I have seen plenty of "fully restored" high ticket vintage horns that looked great simply played like dogs. The Tech removed and so much metal to make the horn cosmetically perfect that it no longer played well. I massage out dents that are easy to reach all the time. If I had a bell flair that needed mending I would non waste my fourth dimension I would take it to someone that has the right tools for the chore and the experience. A lot of Tech.'s sand and buff likewise much metal away in order to get a nice looking task. What good is a pretty trumpet if it does non play well or is more prone to injury later the repair? You almost never meet anyone put a patch on over a repair that should have it because the area is so sparse. This used to be mutual practice. The waviness assuming all of the dent has been removed is considering the crystal structure of the blend is non uniform. Aforementioned matter with crease lines when all of the pucker is gone. Brusque of reworking the bell in a fashion like to how it was made in the starting time place you can not go rid of them some times. If you look downwards the bong stem on an former Benge y'all will see all kinds of waviness in the metal. That is from how it was worked that is the result of the "Resno-Tempering" process and it is a sign of which fashion the metal was worked. It tells yous it was worked later on it was spun forth that centrality. So waviness is non all bad if it is left over from a specific tech that was done for sonic reasons. Most OEM similar a pretty trumpet with no waves in the metal at all. Ordinarily though waviness is a sign of repair piece of work. The reason yous encounter it and so often in second slides is due to size and shape. How on earth are you lot going to work them out on a 2d slide. _________________ The but easy day was yesterday!
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Craig Swartz Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Posts: 7649 Location: Des Moines, IA area	Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:38 pm   Post field of study: Any dent that is a sharp plenty corner to penetrate the material or equally mentioned to a higher place, a fold or crease that cracks the bell. The person I use hither is a wonder. My P5-iv slipped off of my lap betwixt my knees and I caught information technology almost at the same fourth dimension information technology landed total on the bell in a carpeted studio. I was certain it would demand a new bell. John took it out completely, maintained the original profile and I'd claiming anyone to encounter that information technology e'er was damaged. Since then he's washed other things to my horns, by and large modest, but I see no reason to return the horns to the maker unless information technology actually needed new parts, virtually of which he could probably install to specs equally well. Unless you're extremely good, know what you're doing or play on junk, you're best results will probably come up from finding a skilful repair person.
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